Relligious Fanatic on the Subway

OR: When you KNOW your going to have your words twisted.................

Published on May 20, 2005 By Dr Cynical In Religion

Hi Peeps, (does anyone say Peeps anymore?)
I hope the pics come out I never did this b4.

So here I am much like any other morning riding to the city (Manhattan, NY) on the morning A train and we have them all during the bankers hours shift (9-5) on the train. From the Chineese Boat Refugees selling batteries and DVD's to the kid's from the Boro's selling candy, ( I give them credit and appreciate the honesty cuz they will always utter....... "for myself to stay out of trouble and off the streets) and we have the pan handlers who use AIDS as an excuse and that makes me sick, (BEFORE you throw a rock here just think I MUST have a solid reason Ok?) to lastly in this article but surely not the last on the A train the Black Muslim's selling incense and oil's to help out poor Louis Farrakhan and other hate mongers.
So in comes this "Subway Screamer" (that's what some of us call them cuz many times U must yell to be heard) the other day and its a familiar woman who preaches Jesus (yes, I consider myself Christian altho Im prob better advertised as Spiritual) and after reading a Q the other day in this forum I have been JUST DYING to ask someone about how the "rapture" is going to work. For the un-initiated "The Rapture" is when Jesus returns in Glory to call the dead to life with HIm and He will gather the living followers to HImself also and we will live with Christ in Heaven at that time BUT are you now ready cuz here comes my Q: IF Christ is coming back on a cloud to raise the dead and to take his followers with him THEN, how is THIS GONNA WORK? I mean if Heaven is a spiritual place on a spiritual plane then WHY would He wake the dead instead of just calling their souls to HImself or taking the souls to heaven right?
Also, what about the living people at the time do they have to die to go to this spiritual place OR are we all of a sudden NOT going to the spiritual place and we are going to live in these forms forevermore? I cant really see that, anyone agree? I mean this poses so many problems that I was actually scared to ask this Subway Screamer cuz I JUST KNOW she would have seen it as Blasphemous and she prob would have thought I was trying to make trouble and I thought the least that was gonna happen was she was gonna twist my words and not even answer me but go right into a long shpiel about "those who oppose God or something" and become so defensive that I knew I wouldnt get a fair shot at rational conversation.

I now all of a sudden am wondering if I have this all correct in my head and NOW I have to read all this again Thanks to ModerateMan for his original question about Heaven and where is it which spurred all of this thought out of me!

The Rapture
( or google the "second coming" for info on the subject)

There is definitely a rapture (1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17) and we, born-again Christians, will definitely be raptured out before God's wrath commences (1 Thes 5:9), but what is the sequence of events during the endtimes? Perhaps the verses between 1 Thes 4:16 and 5:9 will help us.

Remembering, it is man, and not God, who put in the chapter and verse divisions, what does God teach us through Paul? "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

Comments

preacherman

on May 21, 2005

Are you a doctor of jU and knowest not these things?

Q: IF Christ is coming back on a cloud to raise the dead and to take his followers with him THEN, how is THIS GONNA WORK? I mean if Heaven is a spiritual place on a spiritual plane then WHY would He wake the dead instead of just calling their souls to HImself or taking the souls to heaven right?

We see enough from 1 Corinthians 15 that it is the passing from corruption to incorruption, the resurrection,it is.
"the body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power"

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body... the first body a living soul the last body will be quickened by God's Spirit.

Why is it this way? The potter and the clay!

It's kind of like a resturant Doc; One that has "dress restricitons" [NO SHOES / NO SERVICE] [COAT & TIE REQUIRED] if you ani't got the dress, you can't get in. Why? It the rules. Its the potter and the clay... they make the rules, we have to abide by them, if we want to eat in their resturant.

Heaven is the same. The procurator is looking for a spiritual, glorified body that has been raised in power and glory. Luke 14:12-24

And when the king came in to see the guest, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment; and he saith unto him, friend, how camest thou in hither not haveing a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

All of this is acquired through the person of Christ. What do you think?

Peace my friend;
preacherman

MasonM

on May 21, 2005

There are examples in the Bible of persons going bodily into Heaven. Elijah and Christ Himself come to mind. I think of Heaven not so much as a "spritual place" in the way I take it you think of it, but as a physical place "outside" of our own universe. One way of looking at it may be like this:
I see our physical universe created "inside" of another universe. Not so much a spritual realm, but just a different one. One that we, from our frame of reference, can't quite envision because we lack any practical reference for it. Eistein's ideas of dimensions may be as close as we can come to this idea.
I know my idea's on this may be "out there" a bit, but maybe you get the idea of where I'm coming from here.

preacherman

on May 21, 2005

I think of Heaven not so much as a "spritual place" in the way I take it you think of it, but as a physical place "outside" of our own universe.

I think Mason is right it is a physical place because we see it (New Jerusalem) decend out of the heavens, At the present we know it is a spiritual place because the scriptures teach us to be absent from the body (the believers death) is to be present with God. God is in the third heaven.

Christ told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them~ John 14, as to whether the place is completed, we are not certain, but it will be when we see it decend as the New Jerusalem.... the believers shall live with Him forevermore.

preacherman

Dr Cynical

on May 31, 2005

Wow Great Answers fellas, I am going to ask this very question to Hank Hanagraff-hanagraph?? the Bible Answer man and see what he says, I like very much what Mason has said and no I dont think its so "out there" Mason and Thanx for the John-14 refference Preacherman thats an excellent example also. It was just like one of those things that have had me kinda wondering and to be honest it shook my faith just a touch. I know the Bible isnt always to be taken literally and that "Revelation" itself is one gigantic book which needs interpretation but then again this Jesus descending from Heaven has been mentioned in other places and I believe it IS something that is meant to be taken literally and so it really had me kinda "shook". Ok thanx so much for the replies and Ill fire a letter off to Hanagraff and let you guys know what he says about all this! Thanx again!

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